Good shot, bat; there were realy a lot of orphanages in Italy at that time....

Obviously it is out of question that Hills made the most complex and documented analysis of Bartolomeo Giuseppe Guarneri life and work. Hey, wait a moment! Bartolomeo Giuseppe??? And who was Giuseppe Antonio Guarneri born in 1683 or 1687? Was he just someone whose birth date and second name was changed by “hearsay”, or a real person, other Guarneri?

If there is a single slight evidence of his existence (what I don’t know, but maybe someone does), then we are not wasting our time in this discussion. Suppose that maybe, just maybe Hills had missed something; at least it passed more than 70 years since their book, and nowadays in the “global village” it is much, much easier to get the information which you need. If we feel the contradiction in the known facts, we must search for the logical explanation.

And one more thing: Apology for my jumping with conclusion that 8 years is to long period to be Alumnus. Sorry , but I have mixed the label where the maker declares himself as Alumnus of his Master, with the label where he wrote that the violin which he has done is made “sub disciplinae”, under tutorage of his Master, what is not the case here. Andrea Guarneri declares himself on his labels as Alumnus of Nicola Amati for more than 40 years.

But it still remains that suspicious letter “s”.

Amateur

Yes Phil, you are right, is valid Vidal had the information from Fetis, which had the information from J.-B. Vuillaume, which had correspondence with count Cesare Castelbarco who was the known collector and had correspondence with Stradivari's sons (as well as count Cozio di Salabue) and had the wife from Cremona. Except for that J.-B. Vuillaume had correspondence with Vicar the Cathedral of Cremona, Fusetti, who knew all parishioners of the cathedral, including from family Guarneri, so as archives Stati di Animo are church archives.

Hills it is valid “have come nearer to an object of research”. They searched Giuseppe Guarneri and have found him. Having replaced thus Giuseppe Antonio Guarneri on Bartolomeo Giuseppe Guarneri, so as the first has early died and it was not entered in time frameworks del Gesu. I would like to pay your attention that Hills, searched Giuseppe Guarneri, almost in the middle of XX century, when everyone who knew this person, already for a long time have died. And they have found that searched. Now for one minute present, that the person whom named Giuseppe Guarneri del Gesu, never was Guarneri, and at all had no any relation to family Guarneri. Then whom have found Hills? The one for whom searched, but not the one who was violin-maker Giuseppe Guarneri del Gesu. All subsequent researches including Carlo Chiesa and Duane Rosengard are based on it, erroneous representation, that Bartolomeo Giuseppe Guarneri and Giuseppe Guarneri del Gesu is the same person. And it is “really old story that has been discredited many times over”.

Concerning a hypothesis the bat, it really imagination, which should not be developed further. Similar already was, when wrote, that del Gesu the most part of a life has been in prison and made a violins to not die from famine. Similar hypotheses are good for books, such as “The Da Vinci Code” by Dan Brown, but not for a history, as exact science.

The solution of secret del Gesu cannot be determined in one a word or a phrase, for this purpose is necessary to answer a question who is Andrea Guarneri and whether he was son Bartolomeo, as he determined itself in documents. Or on a question who such Andrea Gisalberti. And on very many questions connected with the school of violin-makers of Cremona.

Piligrim

The whole Gisalberti story that Petherick put forward is based on a couple of labels, which may or may not be genuine. There do exist instruments attributed to Gisalberti, so he may have been a real person, though I don't know of any archival evidence for his existence, and I'll even leave open the possibility that there was another Giuseppe Guarneri who studied with Gisalberti. But this is not the Guarneri del Gesu whose work we know.

- Phil Margolis
Cozio Publishing

In connection with lifted theme Giuseppe Guarneri I would like to address to owners the authentic violins by del Gesu and those who plays on such authentic violins, or on an extreme case of those who has photos, of the high quality, authentic violins by del Gesu. I hope for your good vision. What the letters signs or symbols are put on different parts these instruments, except a paper's labels, and how these symbols correspond to name Giuseppe Guarneri? It is possible, that on these, authentic violins, there can be symbols of former owners of these instruments, not having relations to the violin-maker. I would like, that you self have seen fact that, probably, will give rise at you additional questions and some doubts.

Piligrim

"Is it possible that the label mentioned above, and showed on photo, is authentic? It will be fantastic, but I am very suspicious about spelling “s“ instead “f “ in name “Joseph“. I doubt that in Italy in those times, Bible name Joseph could be spelt on that way. I haven’t seen such a thing yet, but maybe someone did? But, as the experts always claim, do not believe the labels, the violin could be authentic as well as the existence of the other Guarnerius. I wish Mr. Thornton a lot of success in his quest."

'Amateur'

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Hello Amateur,

Makers changed the type and spelling on their labels as they deemed fit.  Roman and Latin letters were used in combination, and not necessarily in any particular way. It is entirely possible that the differences between the Roman (s) and Latin letter in the form of (f) were used by the Guarnerii with the same Christian name (Joseph) who chose this way to differentiate themselves.

Whatever the case may be; three men, each Liutaio, and each named Joseph Guarneri, did live and work in Cremona, Italy. Official birth records clearly show that Bartolomeo Giuseppe Guarneri (1698-1744), was the son of  Giuseppe Battista Guarneri (1666-1739) who was the son of Dom. Andrea Guarneri (1626-1698). Another Joseph Guarneri, (whose existence apparently hasn't been "officially" discovered), did exist, as is witnessed by his own signed work. There are distinct differences in the work of the third generation "Josephs", but clear similarities are there also. According to Jalovec, "His work appears in the few instruments known as a combination of the Guarneri craftsmanship with Brescian elements".  Other authors have also given vauge descriptions in with del Gesu such as.."his ff holes appear to be the perfection of Gaspar da Salo's model. Perhaps, something like this.

Regards,

John Thornton

Brewton, Ala.

Dear Mr. Thornton,

I was sure that you will take a chance and go through the door that Mr. Margolis had left open with leaving the possibility of another Guranerius existence. Fortunately it happened, because at least, credits for this excellent topic belong to you. You were the first who have shared the “other G.” hypothesis with us on this Forum.

Your explanation of using different letters could satisfied my curiosity, and also I can easy imagine a coexistence of two (three?) Jos(f)efs. Through discussion it appears that I am not the only one. 

As I have already written, we have possibility to use all advantages of computer age; mutual communication, but on the first place contemporary software make possible comparative analysis about which the experts, not so many years ago, could only dream. Sometimes even photo shop is very helpful. Some weeks ago I have played a little; I had overlap f-hole, almost the same as that on the photo of yours (maybe it was even this), with the f-hole of violin from 1717, attributed to “other G.” They were almost identical, which makes me very, very satisfied. Once again, wish you a lot success.     

Sincerely,

Amateur